login   |    register
Dioramas
Do you love dioramas & vignettes? We sure do.
Operation Anthropoid
guni-kid
Visit this Community
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: July 21, 2007
KitMaker: 414 posts
Armorama: 411 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 - 04:19 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Here's another view of the "crime scene" but the tram pîctured here is a different one (obviously moving in the opposite direction )



H.P.



I showed this thread to my my Czech girlfriend, who used to live in Prague for quite some years and knows a LOT about Anthropoid (she showed me all the places). According to her this tram is actually moving in the "right" direction, meaning it be probably the very tram we're talking about at the assassination. Here is what she told me (I quote):

"Because "Pankrac" Sign is in the front, because it might still be the one passing just seconds later and the car behind moves too quickly - if it were moving, they would crash. And you know how it looks in there, I think the house was up there, not down the street.

I think it is still the original tram which was stopped there, and the one was going in the same direction.

But I'm just guessing."

And if you have a look at the pantograph (is that the right word for the device to get the energy from the cables above to the actual vehicle?) it also indicates the Tram moving into the direction of the viewer (which is down the street, it means, on the picture Heydrichs car must have been on the left just outside the picture). What do you think?
Frenchy
Visit this Community
Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 11,415 posts
Armorama: 11,213 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 - 04:36 PM UTC
Here's a sketch of the scene I've just came across. I don't know whether it's accurate or not regarding the displacement of the trams. I guess it depends on the info it's based on but at least it matches most of the period pics I've found...



Talking about the tram color, it looks like they were (Ferrari ? ) red indeed. Here are some 1942 pics :





H.P.
guni-kid
Visit this Community
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: July 21, 2007
KitMaker: 414 posts
Armorama: 411 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 - 05:46 PM UTC
Mhhh... that's interesting, since your sketch and the pic show the trams going uphill indeed whereas I thought (together with my girlfriend) it might be coming downhill... (for mentioned reasons which I still find valid). So what to make out of it now? It could be that the tram on the picture is going the "right" direction (as I think) BUT at a different time than the assassination just as H.P. wrote...

For the colored pictures: it's always likely that they were colored later... but yes, the trams used to be red and still are:

https://czech-transport.com/index.php?id=156

:)
Dioramartin
Visit this Community
New South Wales, Australia
Joined: May 04, 2016
KitMaker: 743 posts
Armorama: 742 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 - 06:25 PM UTC
Hmm maybe I should have titled this blog “Pandora’s Box”.

Marian - re your 1st post - Well said on all counts. I did mention the aftermath in my introductory post, it’s a delicate balance to find between the pleasures of model-making whilst not losing sight of the absolute awfulness of what’s being depicted, or rather in this case the implied reprisals. Inevitably thoughts turn to whether Heydrich’s life was “worth” approximately 5,000 civilians’ lives, and that’s by no means with the benefit of hindsight - some of the local Resistance predicted the consequences and argued to have Anthropoid cancelled. The arguments in favour of going ahead regardless presumably centred on the hope it would spark a general uprising which would ultimately save more lives than would be lost in reprisals. All I know is that if I’d been sitting in their place at that time in mid-1942, with the Nazi empire at its zenith and no obvious prospect of relief after four years of tyrannical occupation, I don’t know which side I’d have been on and just thank God I wasn’t there, as we all should.

Regarding the trams, as I said before I don’t think Frenchy’s 14th March image was taken at the time because of the altered telegraph poles, but they are on the same line. I must admit the pantograph suggests it’s coming towards the viewer (and is that a driver in the window...or a guard?) but I think the above sketch is correct in showing the trams’ directions. Perhaps logic doesn’t work for Prague trams but I would think trams coming towards the viewer would surely run in the same direction as Heydrich’s car on that side of the road i.e hugging the curb, conforming with driving on the right-hand side of the road. Having said that, that truck seems to be driving on the left or is he just overtaking? Whatever, for all I know maybe trams sometimes reversed direction on the same line... but it’s all academic because if there’s one thing my trams won’t be doing, it’s moving!

H.P. – thanks yet again, I’ve got a couple of pics of a restored 1930’s-era tram in red but yours are great because they show the reason I was asking...looks to me like two-tone red & tan on the sides, not all red. But now I’ve got a new problem: If I understand these trams correctly the driving tram has its doors in the centre of the car, and passenger-only cars have their doors at the ends, like in your 1st photo. If so, the two trams parked in the “Heydrich” pictures seem to be both passenger cars...except I’d always assumed the right-hand one in this view was a driving car:



If anyone’s still awake out there, it’s kinda important I sort this out because I have to heavily convert MiniArt’s European tramcars...but to what? Talking of sleep, it’s past midnight here now & I need some - à demain
BootsDMS
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: February 08, 2012
KitMaker: 484 posts
Armorama: 480 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 - 07:01 PM UTC
Just one thing (and I admit to not having re-read every last thread or attached detail, or indeed, even re-watched Op Daybreak) but is it not possible that the trams - travelling in whatever direction - would not have been present at the actual time of the attack?

Sure they're parked up after the attack, presumably because the tram driver saw something serious going down, and in any case would not have wanted to incur the wrath of the Nazis by blithely driving past; what I'm saying is, depending of course on what you're actually going to depict, conceivably the seconds when the Sten jammed, Heydrich stood up in the car, and the Gammon grenade was tossed in (or something approaching that action packed moment) and the base-size of the diorama, there may be no need to portray a tram at all.

There would still be enough to convince the modelling viewer that this was a depiction of a serious attack on a senior Nazi. Or, if you must have a tram, why not just say, have a sort of truncated version on the edge of the diorama base - assuming that is - that one was not travelling past exactly at the time of the assault.

As I say, just a thought but would remove the onerous task of tram conversion.

Brian

PS I am NOT suggesting you now research 1942 Prague Tram timetables!
Frenchy
Visit this Community
Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 11,415 posts
Armorama: 11,213 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 - 07:12 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I’d always assumed the right-hand one in this view was a driving car



You're right about that Tim, if you look closely to the right-hand tram car, you can notice the roof mounted pantograph (visually pointing to the man/woman standing in the curb).

This would mean that trams going in two opposite directions can use the same track (alternatively I hope )...

On a side note, I've read that the grenade explosion shattered the windows of the nearby tram and shards of glass maimed passengers.

Here are a few restored Prague tram cars :

http://web1591.fge1.5hosting.com/lfr-wp1/?p=7547

This one, the "1909 Ringhoffer Motor" appears to be a good match IMHO.



If you have some time to spare, just take a look at this 20-page article from a Czech magazine that deals with the trams seen on the scene and the circumstances of the attack (at least I guess so ) :

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/55ffc53de4b07f44d4c86be8/t/59287d4815d5db85bdfc7a3e/1495825742160/84-103.pdf

It's in Czech, but you can copy and paste the text and the pics captions in Google translator...

One example : "View of the set of cars ev. No. 2275 + 640 simulating the position of line 3 at the time of the assassination" :





H.P.




guni-kid
Visit this Community
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: July 21, 2007
KitMaker: 414 posts
Armorama: 411 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2018 - 01:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hmm maybe I should have titled this blog “Pandora’s Box”.

(...)



Isn't that always the case with the likes of us starting to talk about accuracy questions from a modellers perspective?

Thanks for the pictures and the link H.P. They are much appreciated and I'll let my girlfriend have a look at the document you linked and ask her about specifics and details according to the diorama ideas. She really is very interested in everything Anthropoid, so this is the first time I can get her to be actually be interested in modelling... so of course I'm going to go that route here
edoardo
Visit this Community
Milano, Italy
Joined: November 30, 2007
KitMaker: 620 posts
Armorama: 213 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2018 - 11:19 AM UTC
i cannot resist adding my 2 cents on the tram dispute!
in the last picture there are 2 trams: one going up hill (the one with 2 cabs in front of the picture) and one going downhill (almost hidden by the trees on the right side of the picture). so no swapping tracks but instead 2 tracks that are used simultaniusly. Trams do have doors only on one side and ususlly the open on the right side of the traks. when the trams reach the last station it turns around a roundabout and comes back the line (so the doors are always on the right side as we drive right side). so again the two cabs in front are going the same direction.
of course there could be cabs that are only trolleys (the one with 1 door at the middle) but also 2 ‘engine’ cabs can be joined together but one has to leave the engin in ‘neutral’ (sort of). in the convoy upfront, the cab on the left has the pantograph lowered (neutral) the one on the right (again the leading one as it was going uphill) has it up.
notice also the 2 figures in the tram: one is clearly a german military (on the cap on the right) the other one is an officer from the transportation company (look at the dress). this last one is very interesting as it seems to be near the driving compartment of the cab.
ciao
edo
Frenchy
Visit this Community
Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 11,415 posts
Armorama: 11,213 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2018 - 03:00 PM UTC

Quoted Text

notice also the 2 figures in the tram: one is clearly a german military (on the cap on the right) the other one is an officer from the transportation company (look at the dress). this last one is very interesting as it seems to be near the driving compartment of the cab.



As this picture shows a reconstruction of the attack, these guys are probably members of the German investigations team...

H.P.
Dioramartin
Visit this Community
New South Wales, Australia
Joined: May 04, 2016
KitMaker: 743 posts
Armorama: 742 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2018 - 03:00 PM UTC
Well Marian, actually there was a #3 tram due at 10.32am but it was running 45 seconds late...kidding...but I’m considering changing my call-sign to Diotramin’.

So it sounds like the Czech report Frenchy’s dug up might answer all questions (thanks H.P.) so Marian please thank your partner for looking at it – you’ll have to give me her name which will join yours and Henri-Pierre’s in the Credits list when I’m finished. I’d be particularly grateful for an accurate/verbatim translation of the photo-captions on pp 86 - 94, and the red captions in the pic on p. 90. (I can see I was mistaken about Gabcik’s escape route, and I’m interested in who/what is “Leuge Schranek” emerging from the tram....?)

It’s becoming harder to make any definitive statements, but if the trams had not been there at the time (and therefore not material to the immediate investigation on the day) surely they would have been moved, so that the photographer wouldn’t have needed to take a picture of the car through the tram doorway. The sketch/drawing, and Frenchy’s latest photo also seems to support the idea the trams were in situ, particularly if it is a “re-enactment”.

Thanks too H.P. for the 1909 tram #297 shot, I’d found two pics of restored tram #2077 both viewed from the front but tantalisingly difficult to see down the sides. Clearly they’re both 1909 models with doors at each end like “Heydrich’s”, and yours shows the livery is all red with gold lines on its flanks.

Buonasera Edo, glad you could join the party & welcome to our elite group...sometimes wrong but together we march towards the light! The trams – these 1909 models – really did have doors on all 4 corners (check the most recent photo above with Frenchy’s on March 14) which maybe compromises your argument. Regarding trams-lines/directions I think the evidence is still strongly in favour of the sketch/drawing of March 14 being correct.

I’ll wait for the caption translation but I’m not sure Frenchy’s most recent photo is a “simulation” i.e. a re-enactment, I think it’s still the actual scene. Heydrich’s car has gone (it should be visible from that angle) but the tram-cars open/closed doors and particularly the open window in the right-hand tram are identical – was that necessary for a re-enactment of the tram’s position? And if it’s supposed to be a re-enactment where is a/the car? But hey I haven’t been wrong for at least 5 minutes so it’s probably my turn again.

Whatever, the bottom line for building the dio seems to be that those two tram-cars are virtually identical except the front one has the roof-superstructure/pantograph.

Removed by original poster on 03/16/18 - 10:07:02 (GMT).
Dioramartin
Visit this Community
New South Wales, Australia
Joined: May 04, 2016
KitMaker: 743 posts
Armorama: 742 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2018 - 03:12 PM UTC
Sorry, had a technical problem trying to include this image:

BUTA46
Visit this Community
Maine, United States
Joined: May 05, 2015
KitMaker: 100 posts
Armorama: 97 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2018 - 04:45 PM UTC
Wow, guys! I’ve got nothing to add to the discussion, but the detective story wrapped into a history lesson is fascinating and a great show already! Found the follow button. I’ll be here lurking in the back again
Dioramartin
Visit this Community
New South Wales, Australia
Joined: May 04, 2016
KitMaker: 743 posts
Armorama: 742 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2018 - 04:51 PM UTC
Thanks Phil, glad you're catching the ride. And before I get howled down, the two tram-cars are really not "virtually identical"...I wasn't wearing my Erich von Stroheim monocle when I wrote that earlier.
BUTA46
Visit this Community
Maine, United States
Joined: May 05, 2015
KitMaker: 100 posts
Armorama: 97 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2018 - 04:52 PM UTC
The one on our left seems to have the power supply mechanism on the roof...
Frenchy
Visit this Community
Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 11,415 posts
Armorama: 11,213 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2018 - 04:54 PM UTC

Quoted Text

And if it’s supposed to be a re-enactment where is a/the car?



I believe the car should be hidden from view behind the tram. Taking the poles as markers, I think it should be parked below the red arrow



EDIT Just found another view of the reconstruction that should support my point :



H.P.
jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 6,813 posts
Armorama: 6,807 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2018 - 06:06 PM UTC
Certainly one of the most interesting pre-build threads I have seen.
J
Frenchy
Visit this Community
Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 11,415 posts
Armorama: 11,213 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2018 - 09:01 PM UTC
Tram car #297 may not be the best match after all. Just found side view drawings for two different models :

#297 :

https://technet.idnes.cz/foto.aspx?r=tec_technika&c=A150917_184322_tec_technika_rja&foto=RJA5e0118__297638728.jpg

and #2222

https://technet.idnes.cz/foto.aspx?r=tec_technika&c=A150917_184322_tec_technika_rja&foto=RJA5e01af_222211111219.jpg

They look quite similar, but it seems to me that #2222 may be a better match (check out the footboards for instance) ...



Full size

H.P.
edoardo
Visit this Community
Milano, Italy
Joined: November 30, 2007
KitMaker: 620 posts
Armorama: 213 posts
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2018 - 12:48 PM UTC
Ehi Martin, you are right!
Maybe i too much based my assumptions on Italian 1930 trams....
Anyway, i insist in the second figure: someone had to drive those tram in position....
Ciao
Edo
BUTA46
Visit this Community
Maine, United States
Joined: May 05, 2015
KitMaker: 100 posts
Armorama: 97 posts
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2018 - 03:30 PM UTC
Two pictures of the car from the right front-back on page one, passenger door open and broken, no tram in the background. The one just above is pretty much the same view angle, but the passenger door is shut and the tram is behind. Looks like the trams are positioned for reconstruction purposes??
Frenchy
Visit this Community
Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 11,415 posts
Armorama: 11,213 posts
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2018 - 04:36 PM UTC
Interesting reconstruction in 3D (just click on the Mercedes, then on the top right arrow a few times) :

https://zpravy.aktualne.cz/domaci/3d-animace-jak-probehl-atentat-na-heydricha/r~6e781d300d4a11e69d46002590604f2e/?redirected=1521286452

Here's a better version of the period picture posted by Tim on March 16 :

https://zpravy.idnes.cz/foto.aspx?r=domaci&c=A121018_161329_domaci_jav&foto=WLK434565_auto_tramvajodspodu_celek.jpg

and a close-up of the damaged Mercedes :

https://zpravy.idnes.cz/foto.aspx?r=domaci&c=A121018_161329_domaci_jav&foto=JW4350be_Atentat_02.jpg

Just came across a photo gallery with 94 period pics, maps and sketches related with the assassination. More than 30 show the attack scene :

https://zpravy.aktualne.cz/domaci/atentat-na-heydricha-unikatni-fotografie/r~i:gallery:30385/r~i:photo:543263/

H.P.
cheyenne
Visit this Community
New Jersey, United States
Joined: January 05, 2005
KitMaker: 1,683 posts
Armorama: 1,311 posts
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2018 - 06:12 PM UTC
Extraordinary research guys , a beauty to read .

You guys do realize that after the months of research , the months of build time , .............. Tim's only gonna blow the whole dam thing up
JPTRR
Staff MemberManaging Editor
RAILROAD MODELING
#051
Visit this Community
Tennessee, United States
Joined: December 21, 2002
KitMaker: 7,232 posts
Armorama: 2,220 posts
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2018 - 07:09 PM UTC
Gentlemen,

I have so much respect for modeler-artist-historians such as yourselves.

Tim, splendid concept!

Frenchy, do you work in some secret world government archive library? I am always amazed at the resources you provide!

This is such a fascinating diorama for me. I've read short histories of Anthropoid but it was not until the 2016 movie that I learned what an involved operation it was.
Frenchy
Visit this Community
Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 11,415 posts
Armorama: 11,213 posts
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2018 - 07:39 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Frenchy, do you work in some secret world government archive library? I am always amazed at the resources you provide!



In fact I work in a public library...

H.P.
Dioramartin
Visit this Community
New South Wales, Australia
Joined: May 04, 2016
KitMaker: 743 posts
Armorama: 742 posts
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2018 - 07:41 PM UTC
(Replying to yesterday’s post) OK wrong again as predicted, thanks H.P. there’s the car right behind the tram. Is the French caption missing the word “(les) fenêtres” when referring to the shrapnel damage? If so I guess it confirms it’s a reconstruction because there’s no sign of window damage on those trams. Nor is there any in that photo taken through the tram door you posted March 13 – the glass looks intact with staining top right + left corners & refraction particularly down the right hand side like a beveled edge.

In your post today H.P. – in the 2nd link picture 2/7 shows the car with no trams present, so definitely for the reconstruction they must have moved substitute trams into place. And ditto for many of the photos in your 4th link – no trams. In 34/94 they’ve moved the trams into position and put the markers on the road for spent shells. (Wouldn’t you just know it, I bought two male bikes today and 39/94 is captioned as the one left at the scene…it’s a girl’s bike)

In the picture I posted March 13 there’s a chalk cross on the road under the car’s front fender. It could be either (a) a road marking to assist a subsequent reconstruction, before the car was towed away; or (b) the reconstruction itself, with the car replaced according to the marker. Whatever, all I need to be sure of is that Heydrich had to open his door to get out & its hinges were blast-damaged so that it was hanging off…presumably closed (by resting it on the running-board) and re-posed open by the investigators.

Moving on to yesterday’s new tram info - Tram 2222 certainly looks like the correct driving-tram so that’ll be my prime reference. I was beginning to worry all the “trailers” we’ve seen have 4 windows when the reconstruction one only had 3, until…



However - if those trams were put there for the reconstruction we can’t be sure that the real ones looked the same…but who’s ever going to know.

Time to take stock – hard to believe this thread’s only a week old, 3,500 views already & I haven’t lifted a scalpel in anger yet. Research-wise I think the car’s covered, and now the trams as far as possible although not the actual damage, unless the Czech report provides details when it’s translated. I couldn’t have asked for a better researcher than Henri-Pierre, merci beaucoup mate. Unless you’re completely over it by now (I’d understand, I nearly am!) pls keep watching my back, it’s so easy to er go off the rails. Thanks other guys for your comments too, hopefully responded to via the above one way or the other.

So while the waiting goes on for delivery of the ICM kit (hopefully not by sea-freight) it looks like I need to make a mini-scaled version of the whole scene out of card to get an idea how big it’s got to be…